Microsoft Will Help Deliver a "Better" Linux

[Ariel22]

"...the era of setting this up as a competition between Apple and Microsoft is over as far as I'm concerned. This is about getting Apple healthy, and this is about Apple being able to make incredibly great contributions to the industry, to get healthy and prosper..."
~ Steve Jobs - 1997 - Macworld Expo - Boston, MA.

The title of this week's Linspire Letter will perhaps surprise many of you, but I can assure you, it's quite true. Let me explain...


Read more

[Dano]

First off, all I can say is "Wow!" Maybe I'll be in the minority here (and I certainly hope not), but I think that this announcement is most exciting both for us Linspire users as well as for the Company itself. My hat is off to you, Mr. Carmony-well done!

I guess I also have to retract some of my statements elsewhere on these boards. Although I haven't posted but a few, and am a newbie to using the forums (despite being a Linspire supporter for several years), I have expressed my frustration at the delayed rollouts of 6.0, the new CNR, etc. It's when I read news like what's included this LL, or last week's about all the improvements being worked on for CNR, that the reasons for this become abundantly clear. Kevin and the Linspire team have obviously been working on some pretty big things behind the scenes to bring us the best possible product. And for that, I am more than willing to be patient and wait for it.

As with the Novell and Xandros announcements, I can already anticipate cries of "Heresy!" regarding this partnership with MS, but this is one voice you will not hear amongst the shouting. I am in complete agreement with what Kevin wrote, and could not be more excited about this distro at this point. Already the most user-friendly and interoperable with the most media and files, Linspire will now truly be heads above the rest. Awesome news.

Very proud to be a L-Raiser tonight! Again, from just one of the many Linspire users, nice job Kevin!

Dan O.

[chatan]

Ditto to what Dano said.

This is great news (from press release):

• Instant messaging. Linspire will license Microsoft’s RT Audio Codec to promote voice-enabled interoperability between Linspire’s Pidgin instant messaging client and Microsoft’s instant messaging clients for business, Microsoft Office Communicator, and, for consumers, Windows Live™ Messenger.

Of people I know this has been a BIG turn-off.


Not so excited about this (from press release)::

• Web search. Linspire will select the Live Search service of Windows Live as the Linspire 5.0 default Web search engine, allowing Microsoft to bring Live Search to a broader set of users and providing leading search capabilities to Linspire customers.

But that should be easy enough to change.


This annoucement will greatly help I hope in getting people (who don't understand or care about licenses, etc) to experience something besides MS.

-Bill

[chakkaradeep]

Originally Posted by chatan

Ditto to what Dano said.

This is great news (from press release):
Of people I know this has been a BIG turn-off. Video next I hope.


Not so excited about this (from press release)::
But that should be easy enough to change.


This annoucement will greatly help I hope in getting people (who don't understand or care about licenses, etc) to experience something besides MS.

-Bill

I dont understand here. If you REALLY want to use all those things, why dont you just go use Microsoft and why Linux ? Use alternatives ! Use Skype, Ekiga etc., This is just telling like Linux is waste and here we introduce to you all these nonsense !

[Dr.Jones]

Originally Posted by chakkaradeep

I dont understand here. If you REALLY want to use all those things, why dont you just go use Microsoft and why Linux ? Use alternatives ! Use Skype, Ekiga etc., This is just telling like Linux is waste and here we introduce to you all these nonsense !

Why use OpenOffice and Firefox on Windows???

[Kevin Carmony]

Originally Posted by Dano

First off, all I can say is "Wow!" Maybe I'll be in the minority here (and I certainly hope not), but I think that this announcement is most exciting both for us Linspire users as well as for the Company itself. My hat is off to you, Mr. Carmony-well done!

I guess I also have to retract some of my statements elsewhere on these boards. Although I haven't posted but a few, and am a newbie to using the forums (despite being a Linspire supporter for several years), I have expressed my frustration at the delayed rollouts of 6.0, the new CNR, etc. It's when I read news like what's included this LL, or last week's about all the improvements being worked on for CNR, that the reasons for this become abundantly clear. Kevin and the Linspire team have obviously been working on some pretty big things behind the scenes to bring us the best possible product. And for that, I am more than willing to be patient and wait for it.

As with the Novell and Xandros announcements, I can already anticipate cries of "Heresy!" regarding this partnership with MS, but this is one voice you will not hear amongst the shouting. I am in complete agreement with what Kevin wrote, and could not be more excited about this distro at this point. Already the most user-friendly and interoperable with the most media and files, Linspire will now truly be heads above the rest. Awesome news.

Very proud to be a L-Raiser tonight! Again, from just one of the many Linspire users, nice job Kevin!

Dan O.

Thanks Dan.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Originally Posted by chatan

But that should be easy enough to change.

Yes, this is just the default, and as has always been the case, can easily be changed to any search engine you prefer (Yahoo, Google, etc.).

FYI...Google was given every opportunity to continue as our default, but didn't step up to the plate. Microsoft did.

Kevin

[chakkaradeep]

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

Why use OpenOffice and Firefox on Windows???

Using Open Source products like OO and FF in Windows brings in more support to Open Source and people come to know about what is Open Source and other stuffs. What does using Microsoft tools in Linux bring in ?

Is Linspire here to enrich the Linux Community with Linux Tools or Microsoft Tools ? How is that using Microsoft will make Linux Better. Dont tell me to read the letter again, it doesnt make sense !

When companies like RedHat,Ubuntu strive a lot in makiing things work better in Linux(heck, infact *spire is based on Ubuntu), others just dont even care about that. Why not Linspire collaborate with most of the RedHat projects and make things better in Linux ? or is just Linspire worried about making money ?

At the end, there is no respect to true linux communities !

[Kevin Carmony]

Originally Posted by chakkaradeep

I dont understand here. If you REALLY want to use all those things, why dont you just go use Microsoft and why Linux ? Use alternatives ! Use Skype, Ekiga etc., This is just telling like Linux is waste and here we introduce to you all these nonsense !

It's about giving users more choice. Microsoft's IM client is very popular in Latin America and other key markets for Linspire. Having better interoperability with Microsoft's IM client is important to our OEM strategy, particularly in certain markets.

Kevin

[Dr.Jones]

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

Why use OpenOffice and Firefox on Windows???

Previous was a rhetorical question. Answer: Having a choice of the best tools on the platform...

[Kevin Carmony]

Originally Posted by chakkaradeep

Using Open Source products like OO and FF in Windows brings in more support to Open Source and people come to know about what is Open Source and other stuffs. What does using Microsoft tools in Linux bring in ?

Is Linspire here to enrich the Linux Community with Linux Tools or Microsoft Tools ? How is that using Microsoft will make Linux Better. Dont tell me to read the letter again, it doesnt make sense !

When companies like RedHat,Ubuntu strive a lot in makiing things work better in Linux(heck, infact *spire is based on Ubuntu), others just dont even care about that. Why not Linspire collaborate with most of the RedHat projects and make things better in Linux ? or is just Linspire worried about making money ?

At the end, there is no respect to true linux communities !

Linux only has around 1% of the desktop market. When Linux interoperates with the other 99% of that market, it makes Linux a more viable option.

We're trying to offer more choices, not restrict or limit choice. As an example, just today I had two .wmv files emailed to me from others. I think it's good for Linux users to have the option to view these files.

Linux can choose to isolate itself from the rest of the PC ecosystem, or it can become an integrated part of it. I personally prefer the latter.

Kevin

[chakkaradeep]

Originally Posted by Kevin Carmony

Linux only has around 1% of the desktop market. When Linux interoperates with the other 99% of that market, it makes Linux a more viable option.

If Linux Companies like you dont make the change, who else will, Microsoft ?

[Kevin Carmony]

Originally Posted by chakkaradeep

If Linux Companies like you dont make the change, who else will, Microsoft ?

Not sure I understand what you mean? Make what change?

Kevin

[chakkaradeep]

Originally Posted by Kevin Carmony

Not sure I understand what you mean? Make what change?

Kevin

Turning the 1% of the linux desktop (as youi said in the previous post) market into 99% of the market using Open Source tools and thus helping Linux grow better and A VIABLE OPTION to MICROSOFT !

[CaptainTux]

I think we are hitting a minor language barrier here. Chaks, I think I know where you are going and it is a valid question, but I am only 80% certain. Would you mind elaborating?

[chatan]

Originally Posted by chakkaradeep

If Linux Companies like you dont make the change, who else will, Microsoft ?

Just because Linux companies make the change like you'd want them too, doesn't mean real people will. That's why sometimes you have to be pragmatic and "dance with the devil" to least get people to realize there are options and get their foot into the linux door. Sure it would be nice if a magic wand was waved over the masses and poof! everyone embraces linux and open source.

This is how I (personally, bottom-line) see this move: It will now be easier to convince my Windows friends and family to move to linux (whereas before my trying to convince them was stopped dead in it tracks when I had to say, "Well, you can't use voice chat with your MSN").
How can this be a bad thing in the long run?

[Kevin Carmony]

Originally Posted by chakkaradeep

Turning the 1% of the linux desktop (as youi said in the previous post) market into 99% of the market using Open Source tools and thus helping Linux grow better and A VIABLE OPTION to MICROSOFT !

Ah, I see. I think you misunderstood. I have no belief that Linux or open source software will grow to 99% market share (I don't think any OS will ever do that again). What I was trying to say is that for it to grow beyond 1% (to 5%, 10%, etc.) it must, today, interoperate with the 99% of CURRENT desktop technologies (Windows and Mac).

I believe for Linux to grow beyond 1% of the desktop PC market, it needs to be able to do all the things people are accustom to their PCs being able to do...play DVDs, work with their iPods, play Flash animations, and so on. Open source can't do all of those things today. If Linux isolates itself from the legacy world (those other 99% of users), I don't see how it grows much beyond 1% on the desktop.

Linspire has always believed this, and that is why, over the years, we have licensed dozens of commercial software programs, codecs and drivers to be used WITH Linux.

Kevin

[subslug]

Linspire has always believed this, and that is why, over the years, we have licensed dozens of commercial software programs, codecs and drivers to be used WITH Linux.

And it's this part that sort of makes me think this LL isn't really announcing anything profound or new for Linspire.

You've licensed multimedia stuff from MS for years so this really isn't Late Breaking IMO.

[Kevin Carmony]

Originally Posted by chatan

Just because Linux companies make the change like you'd want them too, doesn't mean real people will. That's why sometimes you have to be pragmatic and "dance with the devil" to least get people to realize there are options and get their foot into the linux door. Sure it would be nice if a magic wand was waved over the masses and poof! everyone embraces linux and open source.

This is how I (personally, bottom-line) see this move: It will now be easier to convince my Windows friends and family to move to linux (whereas before my trying to convince them was stopped dead in it tracks when I had to say, "Well, you can't use voice chat with your MSN").
How can this be a bad thing in the long run?

That's right.

It's difficult for any company, in any industry, to be all things to all people. You usually have to work with partners. The PC ecosystem is a HUGE space, with hundreds of software and hardware companies. Printers, video cards, networking, Internet services, drivers, codecs, and on and on. It would be impossible for Linux to try and replicate everything all at once. We have to collaborate with the HP's, Intel's, IBM's, AMD's, nVidia's, of the world, and yes, the Microsoft's too.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Originally Posted by subslug

And it's this part that sort of makes me think this LL isn't really announcing anything profound or new for Linspire.

You've licensed multimedia stuff from MS for years so this really isn't Late Breaking IMO.

I agree.

In fact, this is the #1 reason people use Linspire or Freespire over other Linux distros, is that we DO license technologies to supplement open source solutions (commercial games, virtualization, drivers, codecs, etc.), and let the user choose to use these options if they wish.

We have licensing agreements with dozens of companies. It only made sense that we include Microsoft, certainly one of the most prominent players in the desktop PC ecosystem, in our list of partners to supplement Linux where needed. Having had Windows Media 9 available in the *spires has been a nice option. We're simply expanding that to additional areas (IM audio, fonts, etc.), and all without even raising the retail price of Linspire.

Kevin

[CaptainTux]

If I may? How does this LL coincide/contrast with your opinions in the prior LL from Nov 3, If you Can't Beat Them, Charge Them?

In that one you take a pretty hard stance on the issue as you have done in prior letters and as MM has done in Minute's during the Lindows suit. But this one in particular hits on the very issue of patent deals and the ploy that you felt MS was playing.

This is an earnest query.

[Cary]

In order for Linux to grow beyond the "geek" user base it will have to provide functionality that the other 99% of the market are looking for. To do that, it will take a lot of companies with large bank accounts and thousands of software engineers. For that to happen there has to be a financial incentive for those companies. I.e. they will have to make $ from Linux to justify the investment of time and resources to improve Linux to the point that "non-geeks" are ok using it.

You can't really expect users who enjoy the functionality of Vista to give it up in order to use a product without those features...

[CaptainTux]

Originally Posted by Cary

You can't really expect users who enjoy the functionality of Vista to give it up in order to use a product without those features...

Since when was frequent freezing and crashing and eating the resources a feature?

[andy.w]

Originally Posted by Dano

First off, all I can say is "Wow!" Maybe I'll be in the minority here (and I certainly hope not), but I think that this announcement is most exciting both for us Linspire users as well as for the Company itself. My hat is off to you, Mr. Carmony-well done!

100% with you.

Well done KC.

[Cary]

Let's consider Java for a moment. Java is one of the biggest, most developed and most active open source projects on the planet. There are millions of engineers who use it every day, and there are new tools introduced every week making the Java tool set one of the richest of any technology. However, all of this came about through large and small companies who paid their engineers to create Java tools and services because there was a financial incentive for the company to do so. So, just because a for-profit company becomes involved in an open source project, doesn't mean the project has been compromised, it just means that company sees an opportunity to make $ and the investment of engineering and technology to the project could make it better in the end.

You can't discount the fact that the largest open source projects are funded by companies with a lot of financial resources, so money does matter and the community needs money to continue growing, which means the companies that fund and support open source projects need to make money to continue operating.

[Ryzzn]

This agreement will offer several advantages to Linspire Linux users not found anywhere else, such as Windows Media 10 support, genuine Microsoft TrueType fonts, Microsoft patent coverage, improved interoperability with Microsoft Windows computers, and so on.

What patent coverage? The supposed "235 patents" that Linux infringes on is bogus. FUD spread by Microsoft to scare people away from linux, or scare Linux distributors into purchasing "patent protection" or whatever the heck they're calling it. Microsoft still has not told anyone what the patents are, and they never will.

...relationships that are destructive don't help anybody in this industry...

Any relationship with Microsoft IS destructive and doesn't help anybody EXCEPT Microsoft. Look at their history. Every single thing they do is motivated by money. They destroy the competition. That's what they do. All of these "partnerships" are nothing more than a plan to put Linux out of commission, and make a few extra bucks out of it in the process. Microsoft's goal is not to make Windows and Linux work together. It's a front. Why can't you guys see that... Especially after the whole patent ordeal...

Also, I agree with everything CaptainTux has been saying.

[Cary]

Originally Posted by CaptainTux

Since when was frequent freezing and crashing and eating the resources a feature?

Are you saying Linux software doesn't crash? Countless times a day I have to reboot because Firefox has blown up or xmms has frozen or OO has blown chunks...no OS or software for that matter is immune from bugs or memory leaks.

I think it depends on what you do with the software. I have a Win2K Pro laptop that has been running for months without a single crash or freeze...

Memory leaks in particular are usually caused by the technology that was used to create the software, i.e. C++ has no native garbage collection so you have to manage everything yourself, which can be really difficult. This is true in any OS.

[markupstart]

Originally Posted by chakkaradeep

I dont understand here. If you REALLY want to use all those things, why dont you just go use Microsoft and why Linux ? Use alternatives ! Use Skype, Ekiga etc., This is just telling like Linux is waste and here we introduce to you all these nonsense !

For me personally, I am not using Linux because of the "Evil" Microsoft regime, or for any kind of personal philosophical reasons. I am using Linux because I wanted a choice. I NEVER was happy with Windows, but for a long time it was either that or buy Apple hardware, which is to me is too pricey, besides the fact until OS X came along, their OS wasn't that great. I have used OS X, it's nice to use, but ultimately I never saw anything that was a killer feature I HAD to have, to me it's just another OS. Back when Windows 3.1 was around, I stuck to DOS as long as possible, but by then time Windows 95 came out, most applications switched to Windows 95 only. I hated Windows 95, it was way too much of a resource hog compared to what Dos used. But I really didn't have any choice in the matter. After using Linux on and off for 8 years, I prefer Linux, I like choice. I like being able to use Gnome, KDE, Xfce, and even Enlightenment. Whatever suits my mood at the time. Better interoperability is a good thing and offers users a choice. Users want what they want. If they can't get it in Linux they will just use Windows.
Whether people think that's good or bad, doesn't really matter much to me. I choose Linux regardless of anything. If I was in this thing for philosophical reasons, I wouldn't want to use any kind of non-free codec or application, otherwise it's hard to draw the line at any one thing.

Oh, and I have tried to use and like Windows Vista, but with my hardware, it was a bit flakey, the mouse would lock up a least a couple times a day. Also the new features in Vista didn't impress me much, so I have nuked Vista and don't plan on using it anymore, I just don't need it. Linux uses my hardware better. One thing i found funny is that Explorer would just close on me a couple times a day , while surfing the internet for no apparent reason. I have had this thing happen once in a while in Linux, but in Vista it was much more prevalent using Microsoft's own browser. Looks like Vista has a lot of beta testers helping microsoft find bugs.

[CaptainTux]

That is all fine and good. Most people here will know I am not a stallmanite, but I am confused on one aspect of the patent deals that I need the ethics explained to me. Perhaps I am missing something here and there is no ethical issue.

Now, I will preface this by saying I have no issues with licensing software, there are aspects to this patent protection that bug me.

Okay, pretend MS finds it has some real patents that the Linux Kernel, KDE, and OOo are in violation of.

If I am using the Linux kernel, with KDE, and opening up OOo on a Xandros, Linspire, and Novell Linux machine...I have no worries. I do the same on a Fedora Core machine, Ubuntu Machine, or Debian Machine and I may as well lube up cuz I am about to get screwed.

Now, bear with me here. Novell, Xandros, and Linspire (the other two push desktop Linux as well, not just servers) are safe from these three patent violations....however, KDE, the Linux Kernel, and OOo are not. Now comes the fun part. They get shut down. What now? I have no issue with these three companies making technology transfers and patent protections on ONLY Novell, Linspire, and Xandros creations, but I am having a problem with a protection pact that protects you, but does not share the protection with the people who made it possible for you to have a product.

I am not calling anyone names here, I am not expressing religious fervor here, I am pointing out my issue and wondering if my concern is unfounded or if there is something that needs to be explained to me.

[CaptainTux]

Originally Posted by Cary

Are you saying Linux software doesn't crash? Countless times a day I have to reboot because Firefox has blown up or xmms has frozen or OO has blown chunks...no OS or software for that matter is immune from bugs or memory leaks.

I think it depends on what you do with the software. I have a Win2K Pro laptop that has been running for months without a single crash or freeze...

Memory leaks in particular are usually caused by the technology that was used to create the software, i.e. C++ has no native garbage collection so you have to manage everything yourself, which can be really difficult. This is true in any OS.

Flame me in a new thread, it was a joke, kiddo.